5/16/2011 10:51:47 AM
Kendall
Administrator
Posts: 7239
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FYI ... here's the link to the chat:
http://www.perfectgame.org/Articles/View.aspx?article=5657
edited by Kendall on 5/16/2011
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Kendall Rogers, College Baseball Managing Editor
Follow me on Twitter at: http://twitter.com/#!/KendallRogersPG
Email me: mailto:kendall@perfectgame.org
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5/16/2011 1:22:30 PM
Dodger Matt
Posts: 1553
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Comment From Nick: ] Kendall... I am confused about all the love for Texas and Oregon State. They are "Shoe-in" national seeds. But they both have SOS's in the lower 30s and 40s. I just firmly believe that you should reward teams for playing tougher schedules. The ACC and the SEC are by far the best two leagues, so should both leagues get 3 National Seeds?
Check out these ISRs, Nick:
Rank Rating W L W L SoS Team
1 127.7 45 6 45 6 62 Virginia
2 127.2 42 8 42 8 45 Vanderbilt
8 122.4 37 12 37 12 38 Oregon State Maybe we should reward OSU for having a stronger schedule and not give Vandy and UVa national seeds just because they play in "by far the best two leagues".
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5/16/2011 2:59:01 PM
MiamiBaseball
Posts: 62
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Using the ISR to promote the west is just as bad as using the RPI to promote the east. They both say the same thing every year no matter how good or bad anyone is, so I don't know why people still bother.
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5/16/2011 3:30:53 PM
Dodger Matt
Posts: 1553
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Comment From David: ] Why the sentiment from so many that the PAC-10 champ is guaranteed a National Seed, while the C-USA champ has to work extra hard to earn it when the two conferences are almost identical (only .0019 separate the two in the conf. rpi ratings)?
Why the sentiment that the C-USA is anywhere near as good as the Pac-10 and that the C-USA champ should be given a national seed when the C-USA is only 1.1 points higher ISR than the Big West in the conference ISR ratings, and the Big West has a far better SOS than the C-USA?
Division I Overall
Rank Rating W L W L SoS Conference
1 114.3 380 237 380 237 2 SEC
2 114.0 270 201 270 201 1 Pac 10
3 113.0 369 244 369 244 3 ACC
4 111.8 304 203 304 203 6 Big 12
5 109.5 266 191 266 191 8 C-USA
6 108.4 215 207 215 207 4 Big West
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5/16/2011 4:20:11 PM
weg313
Posts: 123
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DM, once again, using ISR to prop up the weak Big West conference is almost as bad as the southeast schools hanging their hat on RPI to boost up their lousy schools performance. Do you honestly think the Big West is anywhere near comparable to C-USA this season? If so, you're probably the only college baseball fan that believes so. C-USA has a winning record against the SEC, Big 12 and Pac-10 this year. And from an RPI standpoint, we are right on the heals of both the Pac-10 and Big 12.
K, why do you continue to diss Rice this year (very unusual for you). Despite as severe injury woes as any team in the country this year, Rice's overall resume stacks up well against at least 5 - 6 teams ranked ahead of the Owls in your rankings. UConn ranked ahead of Rice? Based on what exactly? Troy? Stetson? And, again, give the Aggies all the love you want, but Rice and A&M have virtually the identical resume, with Rice having the vastly superior road record and 2-0 in head-to-head. Why is A&M a lock for a national seed should they beat Texas this weekend, but Rice would still be fighting for just a regional if it beats USM on the road? Sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense.
As for you comments about Rice at USM this weekend, no question USM has the edge offensively, but you make it sound like the Eagles have the edge in pitching. I'll take Kubitza over McInnis (Friday) and Simms over Thompson (Sunday) amongst the starters, and as good as Cargill has been as USM's closer, Rice has a pretty elite trio in the bullpen with Duffey-Gonzalez-Cingrani...and Wall will likely be in the bullpen for that season-ending series, as well. Clearly, Rice has the edge in the bullpen, and at worst the starting rotation is a wash (and that's only because Reckling rarely goes more than 5 innings due to his control issues).
--
In Wayne Graham we trust.
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5/16/2011 4:44:59 PM
Dodger Matt
Posts: 1553
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DM, once again, using ISR to prop up the weak Big West conference is almost as bad as the southeast schools hanging their hat on RPI to boost up their lousy schools performance. Walt, I am in no way trying to prop up the Big West. Yes, the C-USA is far better than the Big West this year, but still nowhere near the Pac. My point is to show how silly these RPI-centric arguments are.
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5/16/2011 5:11:27 PM
weg313
Posts: 123
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Dodger Matt wrote:
DM, once again, using ISR to prop up the weak Big West conference is almost as bad as the southeast schools hanging their hat on RPI to boost up their lousy schools performance. Walt, I am in no way trying to prop up the Big West. Yes, the C-USA is far better than the Big West this year, but still nowhere near the Pac. My point is to show how silly these RPI-centric arguments are.
Matt, I personally would agree with you that the Pac-10 is better than C-USA this year, but not by as much as you might think. No question the Pac-10 has more bottom-feeders this year than C-USA, and I don't think that's really debatable. Where I disagree strongly with Kendall is his propping up the Big 12 vs. C-USA this year. IMO, they're pretty much the same conference...and the stats and various measures back that up. Each conference has two elite teams (A&m, UT vs. USM, Rice) and a couple others in the Top 35 (Oklahoma, OSU vs. UCF, ECU), and each has a bunch of others on the bubble (Baylor/Texas Tech/Nebraska vs. Houston/Tulane/UAB). Yet, Kendall has the Aggies and Longhorns fighting it out for a national seed this weekend, while Rice - USM fight it out for regional host births.
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In Wayne Graham we trust.
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5/16/2011 7:03:20 PM
Dodger Matt
Posts: 1553
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Matt, I personally would agree with you that the Pac-10 is better than CUSA this year, but not by as much as you might think.
You argue that every year, Walt. And every year you're wrong. I don’t mind if you want to compare the CUSA to the Big West or even the Big XII, but your comparisons to the Pac-10 are ludicrous. Always have been. And I can’t foresee a single season--although it may yet come one day--that that might change.
No question the Pac-10 has more bottom-feeders this year than C-USA, and I don't think that's really debatable.
You don't? Cool, let's debate. Here are two excellent ranking systems followed by the rAT’S Patootie Index. Color-coded so you can easily see which conference fills the bottom with its feeders. I’m seeing more blue down there than orange...how ‘bout you? Even the ridiculous RPI doesn't bear you out.
Massey
04 Oregon St PAC
07 Arizona St PAC
16 Stanford PAC
17 California PAC
18 Rice CUSA
22 UCLA PAC
23 Southern Miss CUSA
26 Arizona PAC
31 UCF CUSA
34 East Carolina CUSA
38 Oregon PAC
51 Washington St PAC
66 USC CUSA
70 Tulane CUSA
77 Houston CUSA
90 UAB CUSA
115 Memphis CUSA
169 Washington PAC
242 Marshall CUSA
Boyd
07 Arizona State PAC
08 Oregon State PAC
16 Stanford PAC
17 Southern Mississippi CUSA
18 California PAC
19 Rice CUSA
24 UCLA PAC
26 Arizona PAC
30 Central Florida CUSA
35 East Carolina CUSA
48 Oregon PAC
54 Washington State PAC
69 Tulane CUSA
72 Houston CUSA
73 Southern California PAC
87 Alabama-Birmingham CUSA
94 Memphis CUSA
166 Washington PAC
193 Marshall CUSA
Rat’s Patootie Index
07 Arizona State PAC
12 Rice CUSA
16 Southern Mississippi CUSA
20 Oregon State PAC
22 Central Florida CUSA
23 Stanford PAC
30 Arizona PAC
32 East Carolina CUSA
33 California PAC
42 Washington State PAC
44 Houston CUSA
47 UCLA PAC
62 Tulane CUSA
64 Alabama-Birmingham CUSA
84 Oregon PAC
105 Southern California PAC
108 Memphis CUSA
189 Marshall CUSA
200 Washington PAC
As for the rest of your diatribe, no arguments, except for this....
Where I disagree strongly with Kendall ...blah, blah, blah... for regional host births.
This is one of those things you should probably be told about now. It’s almost like caliber (US English) vs. calibre (Canadian English). Except that birth is what mothers give, and a berth is what the NCAA committee gives.
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5/16/2011 7:14:10 PM
MiamiBaseball
Posts: 62
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Dodger Matt wrote:
DM, once again, using ISR to prop up the weak Big West conference is almost as bad as the southeast schools hanging their hat on RPI to boost up their lousy schools performance. Walt, I am in no way trying to prop up the Big West. Yes, the C-USA is far better than the Big West this year, but still nowhere near the Pac. My point is to show how silly these RPI-centric arguments are.
Where did you show how silly the RPI-centric arguments are? I missed that. People are discussing post-season bids. As much as you hate to admit it, post-season bids revolve around the RPI. And according to the RPI, the Pac-10 and CUSA are virtually the same. You can tell us how silly it is that Irvine is on the bubble with an ISR of 20, but the fact is that Irvine is on the bubble no matter what the ISR, Massey, or anyone in Orange County says.
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5/16/2011 9:03:20 PM
Dodger Matt
Posts: 1553
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MiamiBaseball: People are discussing post-season bids. As much as you hate to admit it, post-season bids revolve around the RPI.
And yet a couple of teams that are not in the RPI top eight are apparently "locks" for national seeds. How is that? It's unfortunate that the RPI is used at all, but I wouldn't call it revolutionary or central. Exorbital, perhaps.
As to your earlier post, "using the ISR to promote the west" is NOT "just as bad as using the RPI to promote the east" because the ISR does not "promote the west". The RPI does "promote the east"; but good teams from the east are recognized as such in the ISR, and that rarely comes through in the RPI.
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5/17/2011 5:19:58 AM
MiamiBaseball
Posts: 62
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Dodger Matt wrote:
MiamiBaseball: People are discussing post-season bids. As much as you hate to admit it, post-season bids revolve around the RPI. And yet a couple of teams that are not in the RPI top eight are apparently "locks" for national seeds. How is that? It's unfortunate that the RPI is used at all, but I wouldn't call it revolutionary or central. Exorbital, perhaps. As to your earlier post, "using the ISR to promote the west" is NOT "just as bad as using the RPI to promote the east" because the ISR does not "promote the west". The RPI does "promote the east"; but good teams from the east are recognized as such in the ISR, and that rarely comes through in the RPI.
That's just being blind. Because you are a fan of the west, and because teams from the west fare better in the ISR, the ISR must be spot on. Textbook homerism. I, on the other hand, know that the RPI isn't perfect and do not rely on it other than for the fact that the NCAA selection committe relies on it. Do you really think Stanford (ISR #16) deserves to be a host? Is Gonzaga (ISR #25) really a 2-seed? Does Loyola Marymount (ISR #43) really belong in the tournament?
You wonder why some teams outside the top 8 will be national seeds? Because of other factors directly related to the RPI. Record against RPI 1-25. Record against RPI top 100. A team's finish in a highly rated RPI conference. Teams #9 or #11 or#13 can be national seeds, but it is because of RPI-related factors. The ISR is irrelevant to the selection process, and I can prove that by looking at the whiny list of teams that are left out or "underseeded". Every. Single. Year.
edited by MiamiBaseball on 5/17/2011
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5/17/2011 1:27:39 PM
Kendall
Administrator
Posts: 7239
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weg313 wrote:
DM, once again, using ISR to prop up the weak Big West conference is almost as bad as the southeast schools hanging their hat on RPI to boost up their lousy schools performance. Do you honestly think the Big West is anywhere near comparable to C-USA this season? If so, you're probably the only college baseball fan that believes so. C-USA has a winning record against the SEC, Big 12 and Pac-10 this year. And from an RPI standpoint, we are right on the heals of both the Pac-10 and Big 12.
K, why do you continue to diss Rice this year (very unusual for you). Despite as severe injury woes as any team in the country this year, Rice's overall resume stacks up well against at least 5 - 6 teams ranked ahead of the Owls in your rankings. UConn ranked ahead of Rice? Based on what exactly? Troy? Stetson? And, again, give the Aggies all the love you want, but Rice and A&M have virtually the identical resume, with Rice having the vastly superior road record and 2-0 in head-to-head. Why is A&M a lock for a national seed should they beat Texas this weekend, but Rice would still be fighting for just a regional if it beats USM on the road? Sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense.
As for you comments about Rice at USM this weekend, no question USM has the edge offensively, but you make it sound like the Eagles have the edge in pitching. I'll take Kubitza over McInnis (Friday) and Simms over Thompson (Sunday) amongst the starters, and as good as Cargill has been as USM's closer, Rice has a pretty elite trio in the bullpen with Duffey-Gonzalez-Cingrani...and Wall will likely be in the bullpen for that season-ending series, as well. Clearly, Rice has the edge in the bullpen, and at worst the starting rotation is a wash (and that's only because Reckling rarely goes more than 5 innings due to his control issues).
Walt,
Rice is in fine shape for an NCAA Regional host right now. I don't think I've disputed that at all. A&M does have the better overall resume between the two teams, and let's say both A&M and Rice wins series this weekend. The committee most certainly would hold A&M winning the Big 12 outright in higher esteem than just earning a co-title of an inferior conference (RPI-wise). That's the way I'm looking at things. Rice needs several things to go its way this weekend and in the conference tournament to get a national seed. That's just the fact of the matter, IMO. Now, if Rice sweeps Southern Miss, we're talking a completely different topic. But I'd be beyond shocked if that scenario played out.
--
Kendall Rogers, College Baseball Managing Editor
Follow me on Twitter at: http://twitter.com/#!/KendallRogersPG
Email me: mailto:kendall@perfectgame.org
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